JJBIRISH
Butler, PA, USA
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Just for clarity…
The spring bolt has three levels
The thread area
The shoulder area that is the same size as the holes in the hanger…
And the slightly larger spine area that locks the bolt to the hanger (keeps bolt from turning)…
Washers shouldn’t be used on the head side of the bolt, and shoulder should extend just to the outer edge of the hanger hole, so the hangers are not clamped to the spring when tightened…
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mosseater
Dillsburg, PA
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Joined: 10/19/2007
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JJBirish wrote:Just for clarity…
The spring bolt has three levels
The thread area
The shoulder area that is the same size as the holes in the hanger…
And the slightly larger spine area that locks the bolt to the hanger (keeps bolt from turning)…
Washers shouldn’t be used on the head side of the bolt, and shoulder should extend just to the outer edge of the hanger hole, so the hangers are not clamped to the spring when tightened…
OK, I was wondering about that. Thanks John.
Quote:Look at it this way: it may not be optimal and perfect, but it's at least $400 better than it was when you took it in.
I think they call that damning by faint praise, don't they?
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Huntindog
phoenix arizona USA
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Joined: 04/08/2002
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JJBIRISH wrote:Just for clarity…
The spring bolt has three levels
The thread area
The shoulder area that is the same size as the holes in the hanger…
And the slightly larger spine area that locks the bolt to the hanger (keeps bolt from turning)…
Washers shouldn’t be used on the head side of the bolt, and shoulder should extend just to the outer edge of the hanger hole, so the hangers are not clamped to the spring when tightened…
The bolts pictured are what I believe to be his new bolt. There are some that are shouldered. so that it would be impossible to clamp the hanger onto the spring. That is what was on my previous two TTs, that had 3500# axles.
When I upgraded my hangers on my old trailer, I couldn't use that kind over as the new hangers were too thick. I replaced them with the kind in the picture. They are available in longer lengths, and either use a castellated (sp) nut or a self locking nut design. I believe that these bolts are normally used with higher weight rated axle assemblys. (over 3500#) With these it it may be possible to overtighten and clamp the hanger to the spring. At least it would've been in my case.
Huntindog
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LarryJM
NoVa
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Joined: 11/09/2007
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mosseater,
This might be unfair and I'm certainly no welding expert, but for me I would think a TT frame shop like you took it to should be able to to a better looking job on the spring hangers, etc. It might well be sound structurally wise and properly aligned, but I don't think I would be too happy with the overall quality of the job based on the pictures you posted and what they did when you gave them instructions to install new hangers, etc. Seems like they charged you for what you requested ... at first rate job and did otherwise maybe second or third rate. This just makes me worry ... there should not be any extra backing plates or tacked on supports like in your pics IMHO. They should have gotten the proper strength hangers and gone from there. It seems like you gave them directions to do a first class job and then fell several levels below what I would consider a first class job.
JMHO,
Larry
2001 standard box 7.3L E-350 PSD Van with 4.10 rear and 2007 Holiday Rambler Aluma-Lite 8306S Been RV'ing since 1974.
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mosseater
Dillsburg, PA
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I'm tending to agree with you. I have several problems. First, I have worked with some excellent certified welders over the years who could weld anything and make it look NASA approved, so I know what good welding looks like. Second, I know what I'm capable of, and while I'm no certified welder, I can do a good job 90% of the time. Still have trouble with vertical stick, and upside-down I may as well give up on. I think these were stick welds. No sign of wire and some puddle sag is apparent, but it's hard to tell with the paint. The beads on the built-up hanger were obviously welded laying on the bench rather than on the trailer, and look good. Just can't imagine why they welded it up like that. I'll get the scoop on Thurs. when I take it in to finish up my inspection.
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JJBIRISH
Butler, PA, USA
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Joined: 10/06/2002
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While a ¼ inch is to much, that ¼ inch is split between two axles or two ends of a axle… so we are really looking at 1/8 inch for axle alignment purposes… it is possible to be split between the four wheels, if neither axle is totally square to the ball, or about 1/16 inch at each position…
While that is not acceptable to a perfectionist like Jbarca, and he was very thorough… I am not as much of a perfectionist… IMO for wheel alignment purposes the axle alignment deficit could have been corrected with just the wheel alignment, and is what I would have done if it were mine… it would have solved the tire wear problem and it would track well… it wouldn’t have caused any farther problems unless one of the axles was replaced at a later date…
Having owned many trailers (RV, cargo, utility, farm animal, and motorcycle) in both single and tandem axle, bought and home made I can say this happens more often than we want to know… it is not only Lippert either, it happens with all of them… what they call specs are really targets…
These axles being fixed and having a fare amount of play it them while in use and are not really aligned a lot of the time just from movement and scrubbing… they just need to average being aligned most of the time… that is where toe and camber, as well as axle squareness comes in to play, when that average is upset one way most of the time uneven tire wear results… the closer the axle spacing, the more forgiving these alignment problems seem to be…
Moss, unless I missed something these guys set the axle alignment to the ball and hopefully that solves your problem, but have they measured the wheel alignment to insure that there isn’t still a toe and camber problem and that the tire wear was only caused by the squareness of the axles…
Hope this makes sense I am not as good at explaining this as some of the others are…
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mosseater
Dillsburg, PA
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JJBirish wrote:While that is not acceptable to a perfectionist like Jbarca, and he was very thorough… I am not as much of a perfectionist… IMO for wheel alignment purposes the axle alignment deficit could have been corrected with just the wheel alignment, and is what I would have done if it were mine… it would have solved the tire wear problem and it would track well… it wouldn’t have caused any farther problems unless one of the axles was replaced at a later date…
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If the wheel is attached to the axle (it is, I looked) and the axle only has "X" amount of movement in the spring seat, then how am I to get an accurate alignment without moving the hangers? Can you explain further?
If we can agree the front axle is to be perpendiular to the ball (and hopefully parallel to the direction of tow), I'm assuming we are talking about perpendicular at the center of the axle width, from one side to the other, and the axle is centered between the frame rails. Obviously, you can get perpendicular to the ball with any straight line drawn from ball, it's only a question of where on the length of the axle tube it will fall, and how that perpendicularity is aligned with the trailer frame. It can be perp, but not tow down the road straight. At that point, the relationship to the rear axle becomes important and when the two start fighting each other, that's where the tire wear comes in. Am I understanding the dynamics of the situation correctly?
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Huntindog
phoenix arizona USA
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mosseater wrote:JJBirish wrote:While that is not acceptable to a perfectionist like Jbarca, and he was very thorough… I am not as much of a perfectionist… IMO for wheel alignment purposes the axle alignment deficit could have been corrected with just the wheel alignment, and is what I would have done if it were mine… it would have solved the tire wear problem and it would track well… it wouldn’t have caused any farther problems unless one of the axles was replaced at a later date…
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If the wheel is attached to the axle (it is, I looked) and the axle only has "X" amount of movement in the spring seat, then how am I to get an accurate alignment without moving the hangers? Can you explain further?
If we can agree the front axle is to be perpendiular to the ball (and hopefully parallel to the direction of tow), I'm assuming we are talking about perpendicular at the center of the axle width, from one side to the other, and the axle is centered between the frame rails. Obviously, you can get perpendicular to the ball with any straight line drawn from ball, it's only a question of where on the length of the axle tube it will fall, and how that perpendicularity is aligned with the trailer frame. It can be perp, but not tow down the road straight. At that point, the relationship to the rear axle becomes important and when the two start fighting each other, that's where the tire wear comes in. Am I understanding the dynamics of the situation correctly?
I believe that he is talking about having the axles bent to fix the alignment.
It is a different approach with some definant drawbacks.
First would be finding a place that can do it.
Next, I am not a fan of bending things that weren't designed to be bent. I feel it weakens the part. Your opinion may vary.
And finally as he stated. If the axle ever needs to be replaced, then it would have to be bent to match the old one.
Moving the hangers as you did means that a axle can be replaced anytime anywhere with a new one and the alignment would be correct.
This can be a big deal if it needs replacing on the road far away from home. I spun a bearing once ruining the spindle and had to replace an axle. My hangers were mounted correctly making it a simple bolt on affair and I was back on the road.
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JJBIRISH
Butler, PA, USA
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Huntindog wrote:mosseater wrote:JJBirish wrote:While that is not acceptable to a perfectionist like Jbarca, and he was very thorough… I am not as much of a perfectionist… IMO for wheel alignment purposes the axle alignment deficit could have been corrected with just the wheel alignment, and is what I would have done if it were mine… it would have solved the tire wear problem and it would track well… it wouldn’t have caused any farther problems unless one of the axles was replaced at a later date…
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If the wheel is attached to the axle (it is, I looked) and the axle only has "X" amount of movement in the spring seat, then how am I to get an accurate alignment without moving the hangers? Can you explain further?
If we can agree the front axle is to be perpendiular to the ball (and hopefully parallel to the direction of tow), I'm assuming we are talking about perpendicular at the center of the axle width, from one side to the other, and the axle is centered between the frame rails. Obviously, you can get perpendicular to the ball with any straight line drawn from ball, it's only a question of where on the length of the axle tube it will fall, and how that perpendicularity is aligned with the trailer frame. It can be perp, but not tow down the road straight. At that point, the relationship to the rear axle becomes important and when the two start fighting each other, that's where the tire wear comes in. Am I understanding the dynamics of the situation correctly?
I believe that he is talking about having the axles bent to fix the alignment.
It is a different approach with some definant drawbacks.
First would be finding a place that can do it.
Next, I am not a fan of bending things that weren't designed to be bent. I feel it weakens the part. Your opinion may vary.
And finally as he stated. If the axle ever needs to be replaced, then it would have to be bent to match the old one.
Moving the hangers as you did means that a axle can be replaced anytime anywhere with a new one and the alignment would be correct.
This can be a big deal if it needs replacing on the road far away from home. I spun a bearing once ruining the spindle and had to replace an axle. My hangers were mounted correctly making it a simple bolt on affair and I was back on the road.
All true but replacing axles is such a infrequent event, I won’t lose any sleep over that…
If I ever have to replace the axle while on the road, it would be no worse than before, it wouldn’t need to have the alignment checked at the next exit…
Bending the axle doesn’t weaken it if done with the proper equipment so that shouldn’t be a problem and there are places that do it every day…
The axles are bent at the factory to add camber, and most likely bent for the toe also after the stubs are welded in..
The toe and camber can be lost under normal use by hitting a pot-hole, rock, curb, over-loading, or any number of ways on our wonderful highways and byways…
Moss, you hangers can be perfectly arranged to the frame and for one reason or another the toe or camber can be off causing or mimicking the same problems… other mfg problems in the axles like improper placement of the spring pads and environmental things like I mentioned can be the cause of tire wear to…
I am not suggesting you have a axle problem to, but in following the thread I didn’t see where that was checked, and in fact may be fine…
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mosseater
Dillsburg, PA
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I can't access the pictures right now (at work) but I thought there were numbers listed under toe and camber. I know he mentioned I have a little toe, but he thought it would be ok. He didn't feel it was excessive. But then, he did the welding too (I'm assuming) so not sure his judgement is sound. The bad news is I may never know if it fixed my tire wear until I buy a new set of tires. It definately tracks better, no question.
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