topflite51
In The Desert of Nevada
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Joined: 05/13/2004
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I guess for you Tiffin should just reissue new MSRP's matching the La Mesa one's, that way they would all be the same. Thus ending the deceptive practices. That might keep the largest volume dealer happy, and quite possibly make more money for the other dealers. You never know La Mesa just might think the MSRP's that Tiffin puts on their RV's is just downright and outright too low. Maybe there is more value in a Tiffin motorhome, then Bob realizes.
* This post was
edited 08/11/06 09:58am by an administrator/moderator *
 David
Just rolling along enjoying life
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bagman
L.K.M.
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Joined: 04/01/2001
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John/Jallen4, I read your post/reply and could not have said it any better than you! I'm a small business owner and I have made many mistakes and will probably make a few more before I retire. It is difficult owning and managing a small company, and that applies to a motor home manufacturer or bag company like mine. I've never had any dealings with La Mesa, but have dwelt with Tiffin Motor Homes and the folks there have treated me quite well. I'm curious about the relationship La Mesa has with their other RV suppliers. Thank-you for your thoughtful reply. Chuck/Bagman.
Trying To Survive In The L.K.M.
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SCHARLEY
Atlanta, GA
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Joined: 02/20/2005
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"This Forum represents a very small part of the potential market."
JELLEN, pull up Google and search "Tiffin MSRP" or "LaMasa RV" and tell me what's the first things that pops up. I think a few more folks see this than might be realized! 
SCHARLEY
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HeresLucy
Southeast FL
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Joined: 03/11/2004
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JALLEN4 wrote: Those who expect him to make a public apology, probably have a long wait. This Forum represents a very small part of the potential market. It seems the years of good things Tiffin has done in the name of their customers should outweigh one misjudgment. Personally I think it is something for all of us to remember can happen, forget about it, and move on.
This forum reaches a larger population than some may realize - and is growing quickly. Soon after we joined the Class A forum (2004) the total posts turned 100K. It's now almost 700K.
I don't expect we will ever see a personal comment from Bob - even through the RV.NET admin. Though i think if he did it - the goodwill he would generate would be incredible. Unprecedented - yes; Impossible - No. There are not many leaders in the world who do the unpopular - but right thing. He strikes me as the kind of leader who could create a win-win solution to this issue - including communicating it.
There are ways to get messages out to the masses without making personal statements. If i were Bob, i would be trying to get the corrected message out so when someone googles LaMesa MSRP or Tiffin MSRP .. they get a positive message.
Lucy
2006 Allegro Bus 40' DP
2005 Grand Cherokee
Visit Here's Lucy for CG reviews, trip experiences, etc.
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catkins
Washington
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Joined: 10/27/2003
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I hope to purchase a new RV sometime within the next 6-12 months. Tiffin was high on my list based upon the MANY positive comments on quality, honesty, customer support and the owner's integrity posted here. I am now having second thoughts.......... A manufacturer who apparently has knowingly participated in producing different MSRPs for different dealers, seems no longer to put the fair interests of customers first. Yes, I DO understand business is all about the bottom line but how you get there is important to me, especially when spending this kind of hard earned $$. Sell more units with honesty or more with deception??
This decision to provide different MSRPs, if true, may well prove to be a long term loser for Tiffin if more people, like me, begin to question the wisdom of dealing with Tiffin- period. Reputation is one of the most important factors for me both in deciding on a dealer and the manufacturer.
I will continue to watch this thread and hope to see Tiffin provide assurance of business integrity you all have spoken so highly of.
Just when I thought I'd found a winner.......... Tiffin, are you listening??
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Over_the_Horizon
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
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Joined: 11/03/2002
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I'm wondering if anyone knows if LaMesa continues to show an inflated MSRP as of today. Hard copy proof of a change or if they are doing business the same way. Just curious if any of this has made any difference to them. I also wonder if LaMesa or Tiffin are even remotely influenced by the volume of publicity they are receiving on this forum over this issue. Finally, I want to thank the RV.Net Admin for keeping this topic open. We should all take a healthy dose of skepticism with us into the show room. I'm afraid it's going to be harder for an RV salesman to win my trust after this as I will always wonder if I can believe what I see in print. I find that a sad commentary on our way of life.
2005 Dutch Star 3815 Spartan/Cummins 370 ISL
2003 Honda CR-V
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Skid Row Joe
Hattiesburg, Mississippi
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Joined: 04/26/2006
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Gator Rob wrote:JALLEN4 wrote:I personally think Tiffin's actions in this case were wrong. Absolutely wrong! After years in an associated business, I would have been willing to bet a large sum of money that NO manufacturer would participate in such a plan. When the story started I assumed the dealer had done what is often done and created their own sticker. Unethical, I think, but not against the law. When it became apparent Tiffin participated, I was shocked.
But, on the other hand, it illustrates the extreme competitive market that is out there. Tiffin, a relatively small privately owned company, is competing in the market with very large public companies. They compete in a very narrow segment of the RV Industry and have a relatively small market share. They fell victim to the request of their largest dealer. While many other manufacturers have more ability to make special deals with their dealers and offer large discounts off the dealers cost, I would imagine Tiffin is certainly limited in that area. They well may have fallen victim to a request that since you won't or can't give a special price, at least give me an advantage on the MSRP. I can see a lot of pressure when asked by a very large well funded dealer who accounts for a large percentage of the production.
Bottom line is, he did it! Probably not the only mistake he ever made and certainly not the last. Those who expect him to make a public apology, probably have a long wait. This Forum represents a very small part of the potential market. It seems the years of good things Tiffin has done in the name of their customers should outweigh one misjudgment. Personally I think it is something for all of us to remember can happen, forget about it, and move on.
Maybe this forum topic will divert a pattern that shouldn't be tolerated by the consuming public...
Does tiffin at least not need to clear the air ...they are known for integrity and service....just being a small player doesn't give them carte blanc with policy making...
What's wrong with an explantion of what happened?....are they above being responsible to the full-timers on a fixed income that may have paid an inflated price with payments for many a moon to come due to their belief that Tiffin is beyond reproach when it comes to honesty..
Just a explanation from where the buck stops is all it would take to begin the healing process...
Gotta Go...know this is a relief to some...But I'll Be Back
Happy Camping
Gator As a very long time motorcoacher, that travels a healthy swath of the Souteastern United States on business travel (including Alabama & and all contiguous states....) in his coach, this Tiffin dummying of list price stickers topic deal is inevitably going to come up in discussion for a very long time to come.
I think JALLEN & Gator have eloquently stated the down and dirty of this case.
I would only add the following to what you have posted, JALLEN........
You mention we on RV.net are only a fragment of the RVing public......true, but take into account the hundreds and perhaps thousands of people we talk to about motorcoaching?
Do you think there is any way we will forget about this? --Not likely!
I have a sweet tender nature, however I enjoy sharing my thoughts and opinions. 
Fulltiming RVer & homeowner.
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BIGDOMINO
Full Timing since July 13th 2007
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Joined: 01/25/2003
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Please clarify for me. But, does anyone have proof that Tiffin created a different price list for La Mesa? I would suspect La Mesa created the list.
Steve__
Steve & Toni__
38 foot Monaco knight with every option available.
2001 Honda CRV in tow.
Wife running the show.
95 pound Golden named Max loving the ride.
FULL TIMING AS OF JULY 13, 2007
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Catdave
North Carolina
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Joined: 04/22/2004
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BIGDOMINO wrote:Please clarify for me. But, does anyone have proof that Tiffin created a different price list for La Mesa? I would suspect La Mesa created the list.
Steve__
From Page 8 of this thread:
PeterW wrote:
"I spoke with Jerry Williamson, the Sales Manager for Tiffin... Here's the summary of my conversation with Mr. Williamson and others in the Tiffin office:
4. Tiffin is aware of the situation with LaMesa, and in fact produce a different MSRP sheet with the higher MSRP, even though Mr. Williamson assured me that it is the exact same coach. The reason for this is that LaMesa considers the higher price a marketing device. LaMesa is NOT doing any type of shenanigans with the MSRP sheet, such as scanning the sheet and changing the numbers. The invoice comes with that higher MSRP sheet directly from Tiffin, and they work out their financial adjustments on a quarterly basis..."
2006 Fleetwood Excursion 39L
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PeterW
Las Cruces, NM
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Joined: 05/19/2001
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Gator Rob wrote:JALLEN4 wrote:I personally think Tiffin's actions in this case were wrong. Absolutely wrong! After years in an associated business, I would have been willing to bet a large sum of money that NO manufacturer would participate in such a plan. When the story started I assumed the dealer had done what is often done and created their own sticker. Unethical, I think, but not against the law. When it became apparent Tiffin participated, I was shocked.
But, on the other hand, it illustrates the extreme competitive market that is out there. Tiffin, a relatively small privately owned company, is competing in the market with very large public companies. They compete in a very narrow segment of the RV Industry and have a relatively small market share. They fell victim to the request of their largest dealer. While many other manufacturers have more ability to make special deals with their dealers and offer large discounts off the dealers cost, I would imagine Tiffin is certainly limited in that area. They well may have fallen victim to a request that since you won't or can't give a special price, at least give me an advantage on the MSRP. I can see a lot of pressure when asked by a very large well funded dealer who accounts for a large percentage of the production.
Bottom line is, he did it! Probably not the only mistake he ever made and certainly not the last. Those who expect him to make a public apology, probably have a long wait. This Forum represents a very small part of the potential market. It seems the years of good things Tiffin has done in the name of their customers should outweigh one misjudgment. Personally I think it is something for all of us to remember can happen, forget about it, and move on.
Maybe this forum topic will divert a pattern that shouldn't be tolerated by the consuming public...
Does tiffin at least not need to clear the air ...they are known for integrity and service....just being a small player doesn't give them carte blanc with policy making...
What's wrong with an explantion of what happened?....are they above being responsible to the full-timers on a fixed income that may have paid an inflated price with payments for many a moon to come due to their belief that Tiffin is beyond reproach when it comes to honesty..
Just a explanation from where the buck stops is all it would take to begin the healing process...
Gotta Go...know this is a relief to some...But I'll Be Back
Happy Camping
Gator
As someone who is in the process of narrowing down my choice of manufacturers for a new RV and who has contributed to this post (and also had direct contact with Tiffin as noted in my posts), now that some time has passed, I'm left with mixed emotions.
Even though I might have been annoyed by a certain genus mississippiensis and repetitive Saint Bob carpings (although I suspect that said genus derives a bit of pleasure from such behavior), I totally agree that " Maybe this forum topic will divert a pattern that shouldn't be tolerated by the consuming public..." Let's all hope that is so. Thank you for making this point. (Mr. JT...I really AM being nice....Can I keep playing?  )
I also agree that it would be a positive step for Bob Tiffin to clear the air and that "Just a explanation from where the buck stops is all it would take to begin the healing process..." However, I doubt that will happen when thinking about the consequences. If Tiffin acknowledges complicity and says something like, "We thought it was a viable marketing plan in conjunction with the 2.9% financing, but in review, it was wrong and we will discontinue this policy," Tiffin owners who purchased at LaMesa will be lining up with their go-for-the-jugular attorneys to seek restitution. Whether they would have a winnable case or not...who knows? A woman gets $Thousands$ for spilling hot Mickey Dees coffee on her lap, but OJ is out playing golf while the blood stains have faded in the white Bronco. So much for our "judicial system".
Aside from the legal issue, there's the ethical issue. At first, I thought, "I can go into two different Sam's Clubs in two different areas of the USA and they might have the exact same product selling at different purchase prices." This happens to be true, and a Sam's Club exec explained the rationale to me. It isn't so much due to variable transportation costs, but instead due to regional demand and operational costs. Land in New Jersey is more expensive to buy, and it costs more to build a Sam's Club building there, and wages are higher there than, say, Arkansas, so the pricing reflects it. But that example didn't quite seem to fit this case either. Those are differences in the actual SELLING price. The LaMesa issue involves the MSRP, which many of us use as a barometer to compare apples to apples with against other competing Tiffin dealers. If a LaMesa Phaeton has a higher price than a Vogt Phaeton (nowithstanding the different delivery area charges), it should reflect a difference in options...not a difference in MSRP stickers. Yes, it's my responsibility to compare the rigs item by item...but the practice is deceiving.
My next "rationale" was that, in contrast to many other maunfacturers, Tiffin supposedly has one price for all dealers regardless of the number of units sold. There is no "volume discount". So instead of rewarding LaMesa with a discount per unit due to their being the largest dealer, instead they cooperated with the MSRP alterations/2.9% financing arrangement. Frankly, I would rather that they give a volume discount. Neither smells good, but one smells like a rotting peach, the other like a rotting fish.
In the end, (not that this thread will ever end. It seems to have a life of its own and might outlive a few of the contributors), I think JALLEN summed it up the best: "Bottom line is, he did it! Probably not the only mistake he ever made and certainly not the last...It seems the years of good things Tiffin has done in the name of their customers should outweigh one misjudgment."
So, while I'm disappointed with Tiffin's involvement in this fiasco, Tiffin is still on the short list, and unless someone wants to sell me their gently used late-model Country Coach, I might well be the owner of a new Phaeton very soon. "Value" is a popular word in my vocabulary. To me, it doesn't mean ONLY the lowest price, but a combination of quality, price, service, and long-term reputation. Forgetting the topic of this thread for a moment, Tiffin scores high in each area.
I have to think that most who have read this thread have become both better informed and more wary...and I have to think that Tiffin Motorhomes has learned a thing or two as well.
And a special internet applause clip goes out to JohnnyT for having the patience to moderate an exhaustive thread filled with a variety of characters who didn't always play nice but who ultimately created an informative and, hopefully, productive piece of information.
* This post was
edited 08/11/06 04:55pm by PeterW *
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