PowerWagon896
The Frozen Tundra of Northern New York state
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JimG wrote:PowerWagon896 wrote:
And by centering that weight over the rear axle, don't you think that the front axle will now also bear more weight compared to a bumper hitch sans WD equipment?
Just as it does on a semi tractor/trailer rig.
It acheives the same thing that a WD hitch does.
Or perhaps a better way to put is that a WD emulates a 5th wheel rig.
And just what did you prove by that post anyway?
Just your lack of understanding of what the physics or trailering & axle loading really are.
A 5th wheel does not distribute weight at all. Do a search on this forum for people that have posted axle weights from their truck with the trailer hitched and unhitched. The pin weight is on the rear axle. If you would like, when I get home tonight, I can post the CAT scale weights from my setup.
So if the weight distributing hitch emulates a 5th wheel, I wonder why some are paying the huge premium for the Hensley or the Pull-rite? The main advantage of the 5th wheel (for towing) is not weight distribution. It is the pivot point is at the rear axle. The wheel base to overhang ratio that Andy T talks about is 0.
PowerWagon896 wrote:
And, if you would let your ego deflate a bit you would see that the original rig in question was a 2 horse trailer. I had no use for a 5th wheel rig as it would be inefficient to haul 2 horses in.
Oh, but if I used a 5th wheel rig, then I could have given the horses much more room to move about thereby making for a more unstable rig, thereby requiring the "heavier tow vehicle" etc, etc.
I used to be amused @ horse people that would buy goose neck stock trailers to haul their horses in. The rig would be so unstable due to the lack of confinement of the horses in tow that they would go out & spend thousands of dollar to "upgrade" their tow vehicle because they chose to save a few hudred dollars by buying the improper trailer to begin with.
Not only did they waste money buying more tow vehicle that neccessary, they now threw more of their hard eaned cash driving some gas guzzling hard to manuver beheamoth in their daily errands because they could not afford a deicated TV.
Talk about spending a dollar to save a dime.
What are you talking about? To be honest, I have yet to hear somebody complaining about stability problems with a gooseneck. It is so much more difficult for the trailer to induce lateral movements on the TV with the pivot point being at the rear axle. Most horse trainers that I know (we are not talking about cattle ranchers) use slant load trailers. From the ones that I have seen, the interior dimensions are basically the same for bumper pulls and goosenecks. I would call the horse confinement a wash either way.
Besides stability, a huge advantage that a gooseneck trailer gives over a bumper pull is the tack room space. You get way more storage space with a gooseneck. That is the main reason my wife wanted a gooseneck.
You know Jim this is the last time I am going to respond to your posts as for some reason, & this is not meant sarcasticly, you fail to comprehend what is written right in front of your face.
To start with I never said my Durango W/it's WD hitch was superior to a 5er, I just said that a 5er wasn't neccessary to tow a 7000# load of horses in a properly equiped horse trailer safely & effectively.
In your last post you went on about how stable goosneck HORSE trailers were when I specificly referenced to people hauling unstable loads of horses in a STOCK trailer. That is S-T-O-C-K Jim not H-O-R-S-E trailer.
And since when is the kingpin ALWAYS located directly over the rear axle Jim?
Oh & emulate in plain common language means to try to copy or imitate, not neccessarily equal. Look up emulate in the dictionary would ya Jim
And if 5th wheels do not distribute weight to the front axle, ask the trucker why he is shifting his 5th wheel (they're NOT ALWAYS RIGIDLY MOUNTED over the rear axle or otherwise either Jim) to re-disribute his load so as to not exceed a particular axle weight limit, including the steering axle, when he crosses the scales. Maybe he shifted the weight from or to the steering axle to improve the ride. Every time you change the geometry regardiong the hitch point, you re-distribute weight & that includes the steering axle.
There's no doubt that you know a lot about your rig but there is also a lot you do not know about 5th wheels.
Yes, your gooseneck has a lot of desirable attributes but so does a properly set up WD bumper hitch horse trailer.
And you novices that think 12,000# is a "real" load, try hauling a 60,000# trailer load of cattle up through the hills & hollers of Kentucky on a twisty turning 2 lane road you never saw before W/steep grades, all the while listening to the rivets snapping & popping on the deck supports while the air bags on your driver's leaf springs are inflating & blowing off trying desperately to keep the rig stable. Drive that way for 80 miles literally in a half standing crouch so that you can jump to the high side if she goes over while you pray that one of those air bags doesn't let go or the rivets in the deck supports let loose collapsing the whole load of cattle on the upper deck or dropping the ones in the "possun belly" onto the pavement.
Or try locking your rear tandems down on a similarly loaded trailer going down a snow slicked grade that you misjudged & negleted to shift your 13 speed manual transmission to the low side for even though you slowed to an idle @ 20 MPH @ the top. Those tractor brakes are useless now! The last thing you want to do is apply ANY of the tractor brakes or the trailer will beat you to the bottom. And as the speed reaches a point where the governor won't let that 400 HP 883 cibic inch "H" block Cummins rev past 2300 RPM, the driver tandems start hopping & when you look in your mirrors you can see the trailer start to swing out as it tries to pass you.
You don't dare try a "spit shift" to the next higher gear so you just double clutch & jamb the shifter into the next slot effectively shifting 2 gears higher, riding that out until the whole hopping drivers, swinging trailer, shift to next slot scene plays itself out 2 more times. And as you level out @ the bottom of the steepest part of the grade, you slide through a narrow truss bridge over a wide river @ 60 MPH & you reach up & grab the air horn to warn any one in the small town you are about to careen through, not really totally out of control, but @ the mercy of gravity & limited traction.
Fortunately the sleepy little town streets are deserted @ 3:00 AM so you continue sliding through town to a large parking lot @ the bottom of the now leveling out 2nd less severe grade finally coming to a stop in the middle of the deserted shopping center parking lot.
When you have coped W/those sort of situations & countless others perhaps less harrowing but still nerve racking situations & survived non the worse for wear, W/O doing harm to anyone then you can say that you have experienced pulling "real loads".
Until then don't try to talk down to me because I choose to pull a small easily manuvered & parked trailer, not because I can't handle a bigger rig but because I just don't want or need such a rig.
And in the near future when $4 a galon gas is just a fond memory I will still be enjoying my small efficient rig & my high performance sedan on twisting mountain roads when I un-hook to explore the scenery around my campsite while many of you will be hard pressed to justify the expense of venturing out W/your 12,000# "real load" trailers.
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PowerWagon896
The Frozen Tundra of Northern New York state
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wildnfree wrote:Once again let me say this. Hook a 12000 pound 5th wheel or GN up to that car and see how much better it performs than a truck.
Great, post a link where I can get me one of those set ups for my Charger & I will give it a whirl.
Ahhh, the whole idea of the "high performance sedan TV" is really not to break the land speed record towwing (Remember, the title was posted as a question?) but to haul a "real load" of 3500# or so that is perfectly adequete & comfortable for wifey & me & then, when unhooked, have an enjoyable fast, great handling sedan to ENJOY some spirited driving on some twisty mountain roads or getting up to 27 MPG just cruising around if I choose to. DUH! 
I'll bet that beheamoth you use to tow your 12,000# "toy load" (see my last post) is a real hoot to drive "enthusiasticly" when it ain't hitched up.. Or do you just sit in the campground & drink beer when you're not towing your "manly" 12000# trailer.
Oh yeah, how about when you have to leave your trailer @ the campground & make a trip to the grocery store when it raining like PI$$ pouring out of a boot & all you can find are some cramped parking spaces that you can't get you "big rig" into? I can park near the store while you are relegated to the back 40.
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Road Ruler
Canada
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Joined: 09/11/2003
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lesmore49 wrote:
Who is the well known towing professional that you have made reference to ?
I see there are two stories in this thread. One from the Detroit Auto Show and another from Brandon. I'm not convinced by stories .
Les
Have a look here Les. Post #28 should answer your question and provide you with some interesting data concerning the Dodge Charger RT and how it would compare with a full size Pick Up.
Post #28 and reference to Charger
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PowerWagon896
The Frozen Tundra of Northern New York state
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Road Ruler wrote:lesmore49 wrote:
Who is the well known towing professional that you have made reference to ?
I see there are two stories in this thread. One from the Detroit Auto Show and another from Brandon. I'm not convinced by stories .
Les
Have a look here Les. Post #28 should answer your question and provide you with some interesting data concerning the Dodge Charger RT and how it would compare with a full size Pick Up.
Post #28 and reference to Charger
Very informative post on that forum.
There is one misconception contained in that post #28.
While the refferenced "performance packge" (Daytona or Road & Track package R/T) does make a more capable TV due to it's stiffer load leveling suspention, the "standard Hemi" reference is a bit misinformed.
While it is true that the R&T and Daytonas put out 10 more HP than the "Standard Hemi" it is due entirely to a better SRT style air intake & a bit more free flowing exhaust. There would not be enough of a difference in TQ to make any appreciable difference in pulling power.
The 6.1 SRT versions are less capable not only due to the decreased fuel economy as referenced, but they also have lowered suspension making dragging the hitch a frequent liklyhood and as it comes from the factory, the SRT has a lot less low end TQ & that is reflected in the slower 60' time @ the track even though they make up for it & then some once they get rolling. An aftermarket cam that replaces that low end TQ would make the 6.1 as capable as the 5.7, but not any more capable.
In fact, once aftermarket cams, heads, etc.are introduced, there is virtually no differnce in HP potential between the 5.7 & 6.1, maybe 25 HP @ best & the 300+# heavier weight of the SRT version negates any advantage gained through that 25 HP increase.
As far as 20" wheels? My 1st year Daytona has 18" wheels & does just fine. Besides, the tires that come on the 20" wheels are a lower aspect ratio anyway & are not much more than 1/2" larger in diameter.
Very interesting that they claim the Daytona out performs the Toyota Tundra as a TV too.
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wildnfree
railroad hill
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Quote:Great, post a link where I can get me one of those set ups for my Charger & I will give it a whirl.
Ahhh, the whole idea of the "high performance sedan TV" is really not to break the land speed record towwing (Remember, the title was posted as a question?) but to haul a "real load" of 3500# or so that is perfectly adequete & comfortable for wifey & me & then, when unhooked, have an enjoyable fast, great handling sedan to ENJOY some spirited driving on some twisty mountain roads or getting up to 27 MPG just cruising around if I choose to. DUH!
I'll bet that beheamoth you use to tow your 12,000# "toy load" (see my last post) is a real hoot to drive "enthusiasticly" when it ain't hitched up.. Or do you just sit in the campground & drink beer when you're not towing your "manly" 12000# trailer.
Actually, it is fun to drive, but in a different way than your car. I grew out of the boy racer stage a few years back.
When I am not in the camper I am usually on one of our five 4 wheelers or in my rock crawling jeep, which is more fun to me to drive than a high performance car, by the way. Done both during my lifetime. Even did several years of 500+ HP Jeep sand drags. Sold my 10 second 135+ mph quarter ZZR a year or so back. Too much liability to go fast on the highways anymore.
This is an RV site and a 12,000 load pound would be a "real" load for the audience that generally participates. I imagine that OTR truckers, and UKE drivers that haul much more than your puny 80,000 pounds would have their sites as well.
My "real load" is my camper and my trailer that hauls either my Jeep or 4 wheelers.
Can't drink beer because of medical reasons.
Quote:Oh yeah, how about when you have to leave your trailer @ the campground & make a trip to the grocery store when it raining like PI$$ pouring out of a boot & all you can find are some cramped parking spaces that you can't get you "big rig" into? I can park near the store while you are relegated to the back 40.
Never been a problem. I am usually far sighted enough that I don't have to go to the grocery in the rain. But parking hasn't been a problem.
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Rubiranch
Salt Lake City, UT
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PowerWagon896, are you related to Supercharged?
TV: Mint 1972 Ford F-250 XLT
TT: 1969 19' Excel; entertains 6, feeds 4, sleeps 2
You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stay alive.
I don't carry because I have to, I carry because I get to.
I like new things-
- when they're 40 years old!
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PowerWagon896
The Frozen Tundra of Northern New York state
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Rubiranch wrote:PowerWagon896, are you related to Supercharged?
No, I dson't think so. As far as I know I have no relations on this forum.
May inquire as to why you asked?
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PowerWagon896
The Frozen Tundra of Northern New York state
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wildnfree wrote:
I imagine that OTR truckers, and UKE drivers that haul much more than your puny 80,000 pounds would have their sites as well.
Well 1st of all, hauling "dead frieght", regardless of the payload is a far cry from hauling cattle & 2nd, that ain't you pal!
Oh and by the way, I spent some time as an OTR trucker too. Pretty tame compared to loading your own payload on the hoof & putting them down the road.
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wildnfree
railroad hill
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Quote:Well 1st of all, hauling "dead frieght", regardless of the payload is a far cry from hauling cattle & 2nd, that ain't you pal!
Don't know what your mean with the "that ain't you pal" wisecrack.
My most important payload is the wife and three children.
Not "dead frieght(sp)".
That is why I have a large safe tow vehicle.
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carringb
Corvallis, OR
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OK everybody... Time to take a deep breath, and
Seriously, PowerWagon came here to share his experience about his fast, fun to drive car, that happens to be a good tow vehicle. I don't think he's here trying to convert the rest of to car drivers. But, please consider what he has shared with us, and realize there's more than one horse that can pull a cart.
Bryan
2000 Ford E350 DRW Wagon (14-pass all captains chairs)
V10 w/ Banks PowerPack, Diablo Predator, 4.56 LS, 230,000+ miles
Had: Weekend Warrior 41' FSW (still looking for its replacement)
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