SuperdutyII
AZ
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Joined: 09/30/2009
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Quality is not directly related to the hourly rate of the line employees. Quality is determined by what management accepts.
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Sluggo54
Madison, SD
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Joined: 03/10/2006
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"jjbirish: People and human nature dictate the people will do what is expected of them."
"SuperdutyII: Quality is not directly related to the hourly rate of the line employees. Quality is determined by what management accepts."
You gents have nailed it. From children (mine) to subordinates, I believe the truth of JJ’s statement. I also believe that quality is not directly related to compensation, but is a result of enabling workers through education, time, materials, and tools. Providing them with expectations is the ONLY way they can accomplish what you want them to do.
Compensation, though, is a potent tool of management in procuring a workforce that has the capacity and willingness to perform as expected.
Sluggo
DH = Bruce, DW = PK, DD = Maggie (Lab, Pointer, Viszla)RIP 4/13/2007
Apprentice Princess = Kaia Grace (Blue Heeler - Wire Haired Terriorist) Thanks, New Nodaway Humane Society, Maryville, MO!
TV = 2005 Chev CC LWB Max & Allie
5'er = 2005 Excel R30CKW
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McZippie
USA
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Joined: 10/21/2009
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double jj wrote:
I personally believe that you as a consumer need to speak up and demand what you deserve for the money you are spending on them.
Before you buy anything in the lot, look at the craftsmanship. If got a bad experience from a manufacturer, speak up and boycott their product. They will not listen til it's hurting their business.
And the first name for poor quality is Forest River but they are not the only ones.
I applaud your efforts and wish you success but consumers already have a choice to purchase quality RVs from manufactures like Air Stream and Coach House (Class C). Unfortunately most are unwilling to spend the extra amount or can't afford them.
After a purchase is made, even for an inferior product, its hard for a consumer to admit they made a mistake and few will 'go public' and advertise their error.
A case in point; are the posts on RV Net about Truck Campers having water leakage and unsafe construction practices, but still other owners defend these sub-par units.
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McZippie
USA
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Joined: 10/21/2009
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Sluggo54 wrote:"jjbirish: People and human nature dictate the people will do what is expected of them."
"SuperdutyII: Quality is not directly related to the hourly rate of the line employees. Quality is determined by what management accepts."
You gents have nailed it. From children (mine) to subordinates, I believe the truth of JJ’s statement. I also believe that quality is not directly related to compensation, but is a result of enabling workers through education, time, materials, and tools. Providing them with expectations is the ONLY way they can accomplish what you want them to do.
Compensation, though, is a potent tool of management in procuring a workforce that has the capacity and willingness to perform as expected.
Sluggo
... and so we have the recipe for making a 'great' product for discriminating buyer!
and now, lets take that same product and cut some corners, add more 'bling' and we'll have a unit that sells like hotcakes to masses and is more profitable.
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Dick A
Spokane
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Joined: 12/15/2002
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Dog Trainer wrote:Dick,
The foreign manufactures flooded this company with junk. Nissan, Toyota and Honda all brought junk that was inferior and rusted. Did we hold it against them. No we bought them over the US made cars and forgave them with open arms. Today we are makeing great cars in the USA but do you think we will forgive the US automakers like we did the others. Your post is a perfect example of the answer.
I have never owned, nor will I ever own, a foreign nameplate automobile. I do own four Ford products including a new Lincoln, and two motorhomes; one on a Ford chassis and one on a Spartan chassis.
Yes, these autos are much better than what was produced some years back. However, much of this is due to automation.
Now, as far as the motorhome industry is concerned, it is generally where the auto industry was thirty or forty years ago. As well as founding a successful business, I was originally a craftsman and a very good one.
A few months back, we purchased our new Tiffin product which was well above entry level. We spent two weeks at Red Bay this summer and while the technicians were just super and did great work, most of the problems should not have existed in the first place. We will be back again in a few months to have a few more items fixed. Our local dealer has also taken care of several things and has done a very good job. Depending on time, I may have them do more. It just worked out the the factory was more convenient for us as it was close to our planned travel route.
I'm in the process of having a concrete pad poured here at home and it has taken a week to arrive at a "meeting of the minds" as to the quality of the job I desired. It's like I had to hit the guy on the head to make him understand I wanted a first class product. He said most people are so cheap he has to cut corners. So, that is the operational mentality the work force falls into.
Few young people today have the work ethic my generation learned and most think they are working too hard if they are asked to work a few hours overtime. I took 18 - 21 hours of credits in college and still worked two and three part-time jobs. Up until just the last few years I averaged 60 - 80 hours at work.
I have paid my dues for what I have earned and I have no intention of putting up with sub-quality workmanship.
2009 Tiffin 43QBP
US Gear UTB
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Dick A
Spokane
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thunderstruckhd wrote:Thats why I bought a Tiffin. No skimping from this company...
Maybe your kool-Aid is a different flavor but I'm guessing your front axle is overweight as is mine. I'm also guessing you, as I have, had a good long punch list of items needing attention.
Sure, Tiffin does do a good job of taking care of problems and has a one-of-a-kind in the industry factory service center that is operating at near capacity. And, yes, they do try to have good dealers and pay warranty claims promptly. But, most of what has needed repair on my new Allegro Bus should have never left the assembly line in the condition.
For example, is wiring getting caught in the bedroom slide mechanism not an example of sloppy workmanship? You participate on the Tiffin forum as do I. We both read questions about problems should never exist.
But, oh well, it's been reported that Mr. Tiffin is now a Billionaire and of course his grandson is a great kicker for 'Bama who will probably sign for a few mil. ....All of which does not help the fact I can only use 15% of rated CCC due to a major weight problem.
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JJBIRISH
Butler, PA, USA
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Joined: 10/06/2002
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Dick
My buddies Allegro bus is a wiring nightmare… if they get the generator working the solar fails if they get the solar working with the generator it cooks the house batteries… every time he checks the start batteries they have boiled over and need replaced… three wiring harnesses have been replaced due to being melted and shorted…
He has made 5 trips so far… two to Tiffin for repairs, and 2 for vacation that included stopovers at Tiffin for repairs, and while the service is great, the problem continues and the dealers are clueless… in two years 1 set of start and 2 sets of house batteries have been smoked and replaced… right now it isn’t smoking the batteries but they are not fully charging and can’t hold a charge without being connected to shore power…I think the whole electrical system is engineered wrong and they are just grabbing at straws now… he really misses his old Fleetwood Discovery, its issues were at least easily solvable…
I couldn’t wait to get out from under my new Sunnybrook and its constant structural integrity problems, and back into my mass produced entry level trailer where fit and finish problems are a joy to have…
The industry has under rated by design running gear on everything from pups to pushers… it isn’t that the chassis are bad but the application is wrong and that is under the control of the mfg… these are safety items and need to be regulated much like auto safety regulations…
Love my mass produced, entry level, built by Lazy American Workers, Hornet
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H & E
North Texas
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Joined: 10/05/2006
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The wife and I look for quality in the items we purchase and find it difficult. There are several things we would like to have but do not purchase because we cannot find acceptable quality. The amount of money spent on an item does not insure good quality or reliability. The American people in general have caused this situation by being cheap and the greedy CEO’s have jumped on it. Wife’s Toyota has well over 100K miles, cost half as much as my truck, and still going strong. My truck is newer and has problems that the dealer has not been able to fix in two years. It’s going bye-bye today. I am staying with a US made truck. We have an inexpensive trailer compared to other RVs. A good friend has a MH that has several problems and is in the shop quite often. Another friend with a high end MH had to take his to the factory to get repaired.
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PackerBacker
Home is Montreal Qc & Seasonal is NY Adirondacks
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Joined: 08/22/2002
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I guess I'll throw in my 2-cents ...
It's all about expectations from my perspective. We bought a new Forest River Wildcat 5th wheel in 2003, towed it thousands of miles and spent an average of 35 nights a season in it. Everything always worked as it was designed to and the only problem we had within the 6 seasons was a faulty propane regulator which I changed out. All of the interior decor and trim looked the same on the day we traded it for our current Class A. Our MH dealer was able to sell it within 8 days of taking it.
Our Holiday Rambler Admiral Class A is at the lower end of the HR (Monaco) line but has all of the amenities of many of the higher end coaches. After 63 nights in it this past season, it still remains trouble free. Nothing has broken, nothing has come apart and everything works as advertised.
My expectations were that everything would work fine and they always have so from my perspective there haven't been any quality issues with what we've owned.
I do all the regular maintenance; cleaning, lubing and adherence to the owner's manual.
Eric
2009 Holiday Rambler Admiral 33SFS (34' 3")
2008 Jeep Liberty - North Edition
FQCC/Camping Quebec, KOA, Good Sam, Coach-Net
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Cloud Dancer
San Antonio and Livingston TX USA
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Joined: 06/08/2001
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topflite51 wrote:If you want quality, stop trying to buy everything on the cheap. Most are getting what they are willing to pay for it, which is not much. Constantly, I am reading around here, that you can get a better price on something. Yes, most times you can but at what cost to quality? Manufacturers of anything cannot produce top quality at bargain basement prices. You can't compare the quality of work of someone making 9 bucks to someone making 25 bucks. RV manufacturers know the market and what it will bear. If everyone was making 25 bucks an hour in the factory, very few if anyone would buy their RV product. If you balk at 200k for a DP, just think what it would be if production labor was 2 or 3 times higher. 
Am I an example? I did the research, AND I had experience. I knew that Country Coach was the quality I wanted. BUT, I special ordered the biggest and the best, with the features I required,.....for the amount of CASH that I had. I knew very well that I was getting quality that was inferior to that of Country Coach.
And, on top of THAT, I looked all over the country, trying to find the dealer that would give me the lowest price for exactly what I wanted to order.
I picked it up at the factory, for several reasons, ONE of which was that I knew that they would NOT get it right. But, being at the factory, I got them to re-do what was not right. EXCEPT, obviously, they were NOT going to turn my Newmar into a Country Coach.
YES, I still have a few complaints. I still question why they did not do a better job in certain areas of construction. I could easily figure out that if they had spent another 5 to 6 HUNDRED dollars, they could've significantly improve the quality of the NEWMAR "box". BUT, I know the answer to my question. And, have concluded that in order to bring about those improvements, I myself would've needed to be the manager of the business. Newmar does NOT hire people like myself, NOR would I go work for them!
I'm telling you, implementing the solution to this problem is NOT as easy as you think.
Willie & Betty Sue
Miko & Sparky
2003 41 ft Dutch Star Diesel Pusher/Spartan
Floorplan 4010
Blazer toad & Ranger bassboat
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