Dick A
Spokane
Moderator
Joined: 12/15/2002
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club
 Offline
|
Ross, I weighed the coach on a CAT scale immediately after leaving the dealer lot and before we loaded a single personal item. I gave Tiffin a copy of the printout in early August when we were at the Tiffin service center. In a face-to-face meeting with Mr. Tiffin I offered to show him a weight sheet I had done showing weights on all axles and wheels. He was not interested in seeing the sheet and during the meeting told us the issue became less as fuel was consumed. 
So far I understand they may have arbitrarily changed the front axle rating on the Powerglide chassis front axle to 15,600 lbs and have asked Spartan to see if the rating on my axle can be changed to 15,600 or a 1,000 lb change from the current 14,600 lb rating. I was told Spartan would do some testing in Arizona during November and we would be notified of the results in January. Tiffin is also going to change the front wheels as the current ones are not rated for the current tire weight.
2009 Tiffin 43QBP
US Gear UTB
|
dentmac
Southern Ontario, Canada
Senior Member
Joined: 04/22/2008
View Profile
Offline
|
Hi,
Ridiculous ,unsafe and dangerous. American coach is having a similar (but smaller)problem and has Spartan moving .
Contact NHTSA at http://www.safercar.gov/ and see PM for other information
|
Greatriver
Eastern Virginia
Full Member
Joined: 11/11/2008
View Profile
Offline
|
Deen wrote:dentmac wrote:Blue Bird has 17,000 front, 23,000 drive and 13,000 tag. Weight distribution is a big problem and there is a recall underway in part moving the genset from the front to 1/2 way back. Advertised CCC was 3800. In fact was 1000 before the recall. The recall has increased the axle ratings and removed structural steel to lighten the rig.
4500 lbs of CCC in any 2 axle , 4 slide RV does not happen.
4 /6 separate wheel weights is the way to go. At least individual axles and realize that side to side can be 1000 lbs different which may overload the tires.
Tire pressure must be suitable for the heaviest side load (and equal pressure for both side But you can't legally use that 23,000# axle rating on most roads so subtract 3,000#'s for the CCC.
Deen: If I understand what you are saying I'm not sure that its right. You imply that 23,000# rating on the drive is 3,000# over the single axle DOT rating of 20,000#. I think the TAG number of 34,000# total is what you look at and in the case above the total rating is 2,000# above the the weight allowed by the feds. This is important to me because one of the coaches I'm most interested in has a steer axle rating of 17,700, drive 24,000 and tag 10,000 so if I'm wrong I want to be corrected. Also, to me CCC is more an issue of saftey than a legal issue although it certainly can be both.
Larry
Decision made...the perfect (for us) DP to full time.
|
dentmac
Southern Ontario, Canada
Senior Member
Joined: 04/22/2008
View Profile
Offline
|
Hi ,
There are 2 issues
1, Safety- the axle ratings must not be surpassed. This rating is for the axle(side to side isn't looked at)
Tire /wheel limits. --Here, side discrepancies are important AOne side of an axle must not be over the tire/wheel limit. Tire pressures should be eqal on both sides and be enough to carry the heaviest load.
2, Legal ( number on is also a legal issue) DOT has a limit for any single axle of 20,000 even if it is part of a tandem set.. The tandem axle set cannot be above 34,000. A few states still allow 22,000 lbs for a single axle.
The Ohio turnpike and parts of the PA. have rolling scales at the toll boothsand will turn offenders back.
eg. Having a 28,000 lb axle rating (Newell) is safe but you just can't legally drive it anywhere. Newells and others with tag can change the loading to put more on the tag to decrease the drive load.
CCC is part of the safety issue. Useable CCC by DOT rules may be far less - or none
|
Greatriver
Eastern Virginia
Full Member
Joined: 11/11/2008
View Profile
Offline
|
dentmac wrote:Hi ,
There are 2 issues
1, Safety- the axle ratings must not be surpassed. This rating is for the axle(side to side isn't looked at)
Tire /wheel limits. --Here, side discrepancies are important AOne side of an axle must not be over the tire/wheel limit. Tire pressures should be eqal on both sides and be enough to carry the heaviest load.
2, Legal ( number on is also a legal issue) DOT has a limit for any single axle of 20,000 even if it is part of a tandem set.. The tandem axle set cannot be above 34,000. A few states still allow 22,000 lbs for a single axle.
The Ohio turnpike and parts of the PA. have rolling scales at the toll boothsand will turn offenders back.
eg. Having a 28,000 lb axle rating (Newell) is safe but you just can't legally drive it anywhere. Newells and others with tag can change the loading to put more on the tag to decrease the drive load.
CCC is part of the safety issue. Useable CCC by DOT rules may be far less - or none
dentmac:
I stand corrected (again on this subject) and the coach I was looking at would not by the letter of the law be legal if the drive axle was loaded near its 24,000# rating. There is another coach that I'm looking at that and have a CAT ticket on that runs 16280 on the steer, 22420 on the drive and 10160 on the tag. That coach would technically be illegal? The GVWR as I remember was 55,000# so CCC is no problem.
|
|
|
dentmac
Southern Ontario, Canada
Senior Member
Joined: 04/22/2008
View Profile
Offline
|
No
As it is , it is illegal unless you can change the tag load to 13,000. Then you have to make sure the tag is rated at 13,000
If the tag is rated at 13,000, then the front MUST be rated at 18,000.
If the front is 17,000 then don't buy it. Because when the tag is loaded to 13000, the front will increase to over 17,000.
Also were passengers (4 ) in the rig when it was weighed. Almost all of the 616 lbs goes on the front axle.
|
Greatriver
Eastern Virginia
Full Member
Joined: 11/11/2008
View Profile
Offline
|
dentmac wrote:No
As it is , it is illegal unless you can change the tag load to 13,000. Then you have to make sure the tag is rated at 13,000
If the tag is rated at 13,000, then the front MUST be rated at 18,000.
If the front is 17,000 then don't buy it. Because when the tag is loaded to 13000, the front will increase to over 17,000.
Also were passengers (4 ) in the rig when it was weighed. Almost all of the 616 lbs goes on the front axle.
The front was over 18,000# but I don't remember the exact figure (lost that data with a hard drive crash) but I can get it. The reading was full fuel(235), full water (190) and driver only. My 128 lb. wife will add a bit.
PS to TurboTurtle: Hope this chit chat is of some help and not a hijack of your post.
Larry
|
dentmac
Southern Ontario, Canada
Senior Member
Joined: 04/22/2008
View Profile
Offline
|
OK
Say the front is 18,000, the drive 24,000 and the tag 13,000
The front is 16280 -- add 3x 154 for the 3 additional passengers -(CCC standard)= 462lbs and put the tag to 13000.putting 800 more on the front. 462+ 800= 1262
Add to "no cargo" front of 16280 = 17542. Not much room for cargo is there .
Also wheels MUST be 10 inch with 365 tire size.NOT 315's
|
Greatriver
Eastern Virginia
Full Member
Joined: 11/11/2008
View Profile
Offline
|
dentmac wrote:OK
Say the front is 18,000, the drive 24,000 and the tag 13,000
The front is 16280 -- add 3x 154 for the 3 additional passengers -(CCC standard)= 462lbs and put the tag to 13000.putting 800 more on the front. 462+ 800= 1262
Add to "no cargo" front of 16280 = 17542. Not much room for cargo is there .
Also wheels MUST be 10 inch with 365 tire size.NOT 315's
Yes, 365 is what Newell is going with. Now my concern is saftey not what is legal as a primary concern. I want each axle and each tire within their max ratings as it conforms to my personal load. What I don't want to be is upside down before I start.
This is an important topic for all RV's but perhaps were are getting beyond the bounds of the the OP's question.
|
tatest
Oklahoma
Senior Member
Joined: 05/14/2005
View Profile
Offline
|
GCWR - GVWR is what you can tow if you are loaded to GVWR and have the appropriate hitch.
True CCC is GWVR - actual GVW when loaded with all fuels, lubricants, fresh water and passengers. RVIA definition of CCC was similar, but used estimated empty weights and an arbitrary weight for an arbitrary number of passengers.
DOT now requires calculation of a NCC that is GVWR - empty weight - weight of fuels and fresh water. The NCC covers a payload of passengers and cargo; that's probably more useful, because you can consider your actual passenger load, not the load for a passenger complement you may never carry.
It seems arcane, but aircraft, ships and trucks go through similar calculations, and for commercial use the ratings are law.
Tom Test
Itasca Spirit 29B
2001 Ranger Edge
|
|
|
|
