saggys
WI
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Silversand,
Don't you think thats a little extreme for the average guy to do on a new camper?
I would think the manufacturer would/should be doing this if it was necessary to build a reliable product.
1999 F350 4WD CC SRW V-10, 4.30 Tow Package, HD Camper Package.
1999 Northstar TS1000, Torque Lift tie downs with Fastguns.
2006 Triton Frontier 17 with 60hp Merc 4 stroke tiller.
2003 Lance 1010.
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Geewizard
Alaska, USA
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Joined: 08/25/2004
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I have the same wallpaper/caulk problem in my Outfitter Apex 8. I think it comes about from the caulk causing the wallpaper adhesive to break down. It looks terrible. Bob sent me a roll of wallpaper on backing to put over the top of the wrinkled parts. And that looks ok.
Tundra Double Cab
Outfitter Apex 8
Full Size Rig Pic
Arctic Circle, Alaska
Marion Creek, Alaska
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Geewizard
Alaska, USA
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saggys wrote:Silversand,
Don't you think thats a little extreme for the average guy to do on a new camper?
I would think the manufacturer would/should be doing this if it was necessary to build a reliable product.
Yes, that's extreme behavior. And reminds me of the pilot I knew who replaced ALL of the normal rivets in his airplane with flush-head rivets. I think he got 5 knots more airspeed for his efforts. But, you know, whatever a guy wants to spend his time on is fine with me!
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silversand
Montreal
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Joined: 09/12/2004
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Quote:Don't you think thats a little extreme for the average guy to do on a new camper?
Saggy: Yes, I believe so; however I'm definitely not the "average guy". This improvement only represents a fraction of the beefing up I've done on this camper  As I had posted ~2 years ago, "...this camper isn't for sale at any price..."
Quote:I have the same wallpaper/caulk problem in my Outfitter Apex 8. I think it comes about from the caulk causing the wallpaper adhesive to break down.
Gee: actually, my take on this phenomenon is that the wallpaper adhesive, when freshly applied, is fighting with the caulking in a process called: differential shear (read: Volkersen, and Goland & Reissner's analytical work on adhesives). If I were designing the inside bonding surface of 2 large masses (the camper shell & several hundred pounds of cabinetry) my inside wall surface would be lightweight sheets of FRP, then in turn bonded on every square centimeter of backing to the wall structure/shell.
Quote:And reminds me of the pilot I knew who replaced ALL of the normal rivets in his airplane with flush-head rivets. I think he got 5 knots more airspeed
Gee: was that pilot a "test pilot/designer" named "Howard" by any chance? 
Cheers,
Silver-
Silver
2004 Chevy Silverado 2500HD 4x4 6.0L Ext/LB Tow Package 4L80E Michelin AT2s| Outfitter Caribou
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sleepy
Oak Ridge,Tennessee
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Silver... your creative solutions... don't add weight... do add some stuctural integrity... are not too expensive... and solve the problem that created the need.
I salute you.
It is a shame that manufacturers don't incorporate some of the solutions into their products.
Many people, including the employees of our manufacturers have never had an original idea... and seem to live for the enjoyment of finding their percieved negatives and harping on them. Never offing a good idea.
It is hard for us to accept the idea of spending many thousands of dollars for a shoddy lemon. Remember the auto industry of old?
2003 Lance 1161 Camione Chateau,/slideout/solar cells/propane generator/Sat dish/2 Fantastic Fans model 6150/AC/winter package
AirFoil, Trimetric, LED lights
2003GMC K3500 LT/Crewcab/duramax diesel/allison/dually/4x4/OnStar/front reciever mounted spare
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saggys
WI
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Forgive me guys but is this FRP board you speak of, is it what I would call bubble board? I do not have time now to do a search.
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Geewizard
Alaska, USA
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silversand wrote:Quote:Don't you think thats a little extreme for the average guy to do on a new camper?
Saggy: Yes, I believe so; however I'm definitely not the "average guy". This improvement only represents a fraction of the beefing up I've done on this camper As I had posted ~2 years ago, "...this camper isn't for sale at any price..."
Quote:I have the same wallpaper/caulk problem in my Outfitter Apex 8. I think it comes about from the caulk causing the wallpaper adhesive to break down.
Gee: actually, my take on this phenomenon is that the wallpaper adhesive, when freshly applied, is fighting with the caulking in a process called: differential shear (read: Volkersen, and Goland & Reissner's analytical work on adhesives). If I were designing the inside bonding surface of 2 large masses (the camper shell & several hundred pounds of cabinetry) my inside wall surface would be lightweight sheets of FRP, then in turn bonded on every square centimeter of backing to the wall structure/shell.
Quote:And reminds me of the pilot I knew who replaced ALL of the normal rivets in his airplane with flush-head rivets. I think he got 5 knots more airspeed
Gee: was that pilot a "test pilot/designer" named "Howard" by any chance?
Cheers,
Silver-
That's the way I feel too, Silver, my camper isn't for sale at any price. I spent time researching pop-up campers prior to purchase and came to the conclusion that the Outfitter Apex 8 was just right for me. And, like you, I'm tweaking it whenever possible.
I don't agree with you on the caulking issue. I don't think Outfitter glues on that wallpaper in the factory. I think they buy it that way. And the acetate (or whatever) in the caulking causes the wallpaper to release from the backing board. My theory at least.
Outfitter, like any other manufacturer of anything, has to put things together as fast as possible while balancing that with quality and cost controls. That leaves room for "improvers" to make things better because they want to and can spend the time to do so. If Outfitter spent the time that Silver has on improving his TC, their products would sell for $40k or more! And what would Silver do in his spare time?
The pilot I refer to wasn't "Howard". He is Matt, a long-time Alaska helicopter pilot. Eccentric, but no where near Mr Hughes!
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travelnutz
West Michigan - On the Lakeshore
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If I had my way as to how RV's and campers are constructed for the outside walls, there would be some very big changes. For all the outside walls, min of 2" thick, floor min of 3" thick, and the roof min of 4" thick: The aluminum frame structure and the inside wall paneling would be assembled and placed in a confining jig with the outside side of the RV wall pointing up. Then all the open areas would be fillied with an expanding closed cell foam liquid and moderately confined on top to assure proper distribution, cavity filling, and adhesion. Allowed to rise and cure and then passed thru a 8' + wide roll sanding machine to remove any excess foam and control the assembly thickness. Next assemble the total RV coach cage with many screws and a good epoxy type glue. For the exterior skin, a non-wood (impervious to water) 1/4" strong glueable backing manufactured composite material and would have a heat and pressure activated high quality epoxy type glue sprayed on to one side and the filon or a true fiberglass skin heat and pressure rolled on to the backer. Then the exterior skin would be attached to the assembled coach cage in a clamping jig with over a rolled or sprayed "Gorilla" like expansion glue and clamped for required curing time. 2 opposing sides at a time until all are attached. Then an additional roof skin such as one piece aluminum or Topo etc would be laid on and rolled around the top corner on all edges for a minimum of an inch over a bonding non-hardening caulk/adhesive layer. Then the sealing corner aluminum molding would be attached with self sealing stainless screws over another layer of the non-hardening caulk adhesive layer material.
The result would be a long lasting truely sealed and totally insulated structure that's windproof, waterproof, and climate efficient for the RV's coach exterior cage. The finished RV would still be subject to exterior attached item sealing such as the A/C unit but even a leak wouldn't cause structure failure because there's no place for moisture or water to collect or go. This type of build would also require the RV's wiring to be run thru a basement type false floor or in RV covered corners or thru decorative type corner ducts in closets and cabinents etc. Nearly invisible and yet we'd finally be able to get at nearly all the RV's wiring to make changes, repair, add to, or install newly wanted options later. Wouldn't it be a shame if our RV's were built like they should be, have true comfort in all climates, and if you think about it, the cost would not be much more than present because the present number of man hours would be reduced substantially. The adjustable jigs and required machines would only need to be purchased once and could be used on the whole product line. Think about the increased resale value of having an RV with no rot, mold, or leak damage having occurred even at 20 years old. Kind of like what "silversand" is trying to do....
That's enough, my fingers are tired!
Edited to correct a couple typo's
* This post was
edited 11/06/09 04:31pm by travelnutz *
2004 Chev 2500HD D/A crew cab LB 4X4, Air Bags & upgraded to 3500HD
Lance 990 Legend Camper 11' 3" with my 2' X 7' rear porch with box
29 ft Carri-lite 5th wheel - specially built
36 ft Carriage 5'er (sold), looking at replacements
Lance 915 Camper also
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silversand
Montreal
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Quote:your creative solutions... don't add weight... do add some stuctural integrity... are not too expensive... and solve the problem that created the need.
Thanks Sleepy. I think we are trying to accomplish the same thing with our campers (site: your extensive modifications history; I have to mention Travelnutz's extensive improvements, too, to his RVs). I salute *you* too!
Quote:I don't think Outfitter glues on that wallpaper in the factory. I think they buy it that way. And the acetate (or whatever) in the caulking causes the wallpaper to release from the backing board. My theory at least.
Gee: I agree with you to the extent that our interior appears to have that same RV board wallpaper...however, where ours had experienced "differential shear" is over an additional layer of wallpaper applied over the same wallpaper, interestingly (perhaps to lap seams?). I can see where perhaps the glue that bonds the wallpaper to the backerboard {applied at the product factory} could shear given the properties of the caulking and the cabinetry mass it's all bonded to (the same principal of differential shear, however a cured bond let go).
Quote:If Outfitter spent the time that Silver has on improving his TC, their products would sell for $40k or more! And what would Silver do in his spare time?
Gee: are you kidding? I'd go nuts if I couldn't make improvements on the improvements ! ! If someone offered me $50,000 cash for this Outfitter, I'm stating publicly here: I'd turn down the offer!
Quote:The result would be a long lasting truely sealed and totally insulated structure that's windproof, waterproof, and climate efficient for the RV's coach exterior cage.
Travelnutz:
That is precisely how the RV industry should proceed! In fact I'd go as far as saying that a bold entrepreneur with vision could take your concept and produce shells for every RV genre out of a strategically-located facility (A, C, 5th, TC, TT) and attach said to the coach/trailer/TC manufacturer's preferred chassis, windows and electrical systems and voila, the most robust and cost-effective RVs ever made would be born.
Have you seen the Nidacor material? I like the concept of laser (or, extremely high-pressure water jet cutting) cutting these space-age panels, and assembling them to potentially thousands of shape~designs using extruded aluminum corner receivers (for base, side-corners, and radiused roofing edges) glued using the appropriate epoxy, and riveting. I think that 2-inch honeycomb is available?
Cheers all! I like the spirit of improvement and invention here!
Silver-
* This post was
edited 11/06/09 03:03pm by silversand *
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travelnutz
West Michigan - On the Lakeshore
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silversand,
I have heard of Nida-Core and Hexicore but I'm not sure where you would use them on a camper unless it's to mold the entire shell in one piece or to glue a 2 piece shell together. Even at that, it states that reinforcement bracing is needed and must be bonded to the products surface. They mention fiberglass cloth or roving etc and epoxy it together. In their tech section it states that if used for a boat deck or an engine supporting transom, it must be totally reinforced to handle the stresses. It's advantages are that it's truely waterproof, long lasting, and very light weight. Disadvantages are that it collapses if a screw or bolt is drawn tightly thru it so it must be glued etc and it's also very costly to use in volume. Yes, it seems to be a good product for the proper usage but very expensive. At least using today's prices. I went to Nida-Core's technical usage section and used their calculator to find out how much of their product would be required to make a non weight supporting boat transom that is 2" thick X 96" wide X 48" to the bottom of the keel and having a freeboard of 36" to the chine. That's 12" of Vee bottom deadrise up from the keel. A typical 18' - 22' I/O boat size and design. Their calculator said I would need 35 gallons of their product just for the transom! WOW!!! Making a truck camper of of the stuff would be an arm and a leg and then some. I'm sure it would do a good job tho. Where's my billionaire friend when you need him? Maybe a nice fat stimulus check from Washington DC will do it!
Maybe you can clearify to me what your thinking is as how to use it.
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