Reddog1
El Dorado, CA
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travelnutz wrote:...Think about the increased resale value of having an RV with no rot, mold, or leak damage having occurred even at 20 years old. ... My molded fiberglass clam shell is as you described, and it is a 1988 (21-years old). It has never been under a shelter of any kind. I am the second owner. No space age material, just simple chopped glass and resin. Oh, not only does NADA not increase the resale value, but fellow TC'ers are still trying to dream about materials and designs that would last as long.
Wayne
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travelnutz
West Michigan - On the Lakeshore
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Joined: 04/09/2006
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Wayne,
This is in no way bashing a BigFoot Camper!
My post was in reply to silversand's mention of Nida-Core being used for truck campers etc. I did not suggest having a clam shell camper is the way to go as it has it's issues also. While I have no desire to knock a clamshell camper as they are well made and great for many owners and many seem to be happy with theirs. However, there are some known factors that need to be realized as they have been posted about right here on this forum and on several others also.
Yes, they are very good for some areas of the country/continent where the extremes or vast temperature changes daily/seasonally are not the norm. I'd expect about any RV to hold up well in California or the southwest and they usually do within reason. However, that's only one region of our North America RV'ing world. Clam shell campers are not popular in the Northeast nor the Midwest and you'll see very few around here due to the sweating that occurs in these areas of the country. We may see one or two a year! Temps may vary from well below zero F to well over 100 F during the year and it causes a lot of condensation to form and drop down into the bowl like basement/under the floor and be trapped in the clamshell campers. Thus, the trapped water soon molds and then rots the floor supports and/or floor etc. Very difficult and expensive to repair.
I have seen one myself at a favorite dealer's repair shop which was torn apart to replace the stringers/floor after the owner's foot went thru the floor and there was rot almost everywhere. That water came from somewhere, was trapped, and couldn't evaporate. The mold stench was nauseating as it stunk up the whole repair area and the employees had to keep the big entry doors open. I don't know what the total bill was for the repair but they were talking about if it was worth repairing when I saw it. Maybe I'll have to ask!
The lesser insulation used (thickness) between inner and outer walls, ceilings, and floors than I had suggested in my suggested camper construction post along with the normal windows used in the usual clam shell is very prone to this condensation occurring in the ambient extremes as most regional owners are likely to experience. Where does this condensation really end up? DOWN to the below the floor! Clam shells have basically the same openings in the roof and sides as all the other types of campers and that's where the leaks generally originate for outside water intrusion. Go back and read what I had suggested for a camper structure build and how all wiring etc would be inside the walls and all areas accessible. This also will permit inspection and drying should water gathering happen. I like the clam shell idea but in reality it doesn't fit all climates, temnperature swings, humidity, and other conditions us users often see. Keep heat/cold, humidity, wicking, and water intrusion out and condensation along with it's issues are virtually non-existent.
Your camper is holding up well as it should and it's sure makes you happy but what about the one's who have had the known issues? As for resale values? How can you possibly say that any camper will not bring more $$$ than another camper. Night and day difference here as to the actual selling price of various campers. Our 36' Carriage that took a tree falling thru the roof was totalled for considerably more than 1 1/2 times the NADA value in their listings. I didn't dictate the value. Our insurance company did. Also. we sold or Lance 915 a little over a week ago for almost double the NADA suggested used value. Condition, appearance, make, model, location makes so much difference! At least around here it does.
2004 Chev 2500HD D/A crew cab LB 4X4, Air Bags & upgraded to 3500HD
Lance 990 Legend Camper 11' 4" with my 2' X 7' rear porch with box
29 ft Carri-lite 5th wheel - specially built
36 ft Carriage 5'er (took a tree falling)
Lance 915 Camper (just sold)
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Reddog1
El Dorado, CA
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travelnutz, I did not read your post as bashing any TC, much less Bigfoot, and certainly not my camper. My comment was directed at your comment quoted in my post. I certainly took no offense, and apologize if my post appeared as though I did.
I do disagree with the notion "Clam shells have basically the same openings in the roof and sides as all the other types of campers and that's where the leaks generally originate for outside water intrusion." Clam shells do not have seams on every corner, nor seams to connect sheets of different materials. You only need to look at each type of construction to see there is a big difference in the potential for leaks.
On what do you base the idea that "Clam shell campers are not popular in the Northeast nor the Midwest and you'll see very few around here due to the sweating that occurs in these areas of the country."?
As a clam shell owner, I am pretty versed in how the floors are constructed. I would sure like to see photos of the owner's foot going thru the floor.
Wayne
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jmtandem
carson city nv
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Joined: 01/18/2006
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Travelnutz,
Alaskan makes campers that have lasted easy 40 years, wood framed, aluminum skin. Kind of like the Airstream travel trailers that have been made since the mid 1930's and, of which, 65 percent or more are still on the road. We already have tried and true examples of products (besides Bigfoot/Northern Light) that have proven they can go the distance. My comments are not intended to take away anything from your analysis and I think it is good that you are trying to discuss better longevity; however, I am just offering examples that not all RV's and truck campers are 10 year throw away units due to condensation, rot, feet thru the floor problems, etc. Today, some are well made, some very well made. What does the customer want? something that lasts the distance or something that doesn't cost much. Who worries about condensation and how it will affect their camper in 30 years? Most consumers are more concerned about the monthly payments.
'05 Dodge Cummins 4x4 dually 3500 white quadcab auto long bed airbags overload springs bumpers
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travelnutz
West Michigan - On the Lakeshore
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Joined: 04/09/2006
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Wayne,
Of course I don't have pics of a person's foot going thru his camper floor nor do I have pics of his camper at an RV place being repaired. Why would I and what an odd request! Besides, that was about 2 1/2 years ago when I was talking to the service manager about adding something to one of our 5'ers.
My post had clearly stated that the roof and wall skins etc would be glued and clamped in a jig to assure proper contact while the "Gorilla" like expansion glue is curing (which seals and is totally waterproof and creates a solid bond) then a roof of ONE piece aluminum or TOPO would be laid on and rolled around the top corner on all edges for a minimum of an inch over a bonding non-hardening Caulk/adhesive layer. Then the corner aluminum molding would be attached with self sealing stainless screws over another layer of the non-hardening caulk adhesive layer material. Note that the walls are solid foam filled and bonded with no wood or material that will absorb water or rot and the corner is waterproof glued and double sealed and having 2 layers of roof capable material that goes around the corner. It's not going to leak even if the top roof layer and the second layer skin is punctured!
The only place for water intrusion will be where items create a hole thru the roof such as a hatch or the A/C etc or openings in sidewalls for items or comopartments. Same on any production camper! Depends on how well the these items are sealed at attachment and/or the doors seal.
Why are you telling me what we see here as to brands/types of campers and why. WE live here and know what occurs! Do you?
No apology is needed in the least and all is well Wayne.
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travelnutz
West Michigan - On the Lakeshore
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jmtandem,
Very good point about how long the quality built RV's last. They are very expensive RV's and few people will spring for them like you said. We will and basically always have. Pay cheap, get cheap! Then do it all over again...
I was trying to speculate on an average priced RV that would last like the high level ones generally do.
Actually, I wanted to cure the mold, rot, and condensation damage and upgrading the insulation R-factors to acceptable levels at the same time. So much room for desired improvements!
* This post was
edited 11/08/09 05:46pm by travelnutz *
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Reddog1
El Dorado, CA
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Respectfully, I live in the west coast, and I do not feel qualified to arbitrarily state why any TC is or is not popular here. If I were to guess, I would state that, not post it as fact, unless I could at least give some point of reference. Check out how many Northern Lite owners are in your neighborhood and Canada on this Thread: How many Northern Lite owners do we have?
I absolutely agree with your response to jmtandem. I would add that we consumers are much more impressed with the paint job, than we are with the quality of a product. Unfortunately, very few of us really do not know what is or is not a quality product, until we buy it. Then we justify the lack of quality. Personally, I am too cheap to buy a new version of what I have, even if I thought it was a better product. I do wish others would, so I could buy them when they are about 15-years old.  
I think it is worth noting, the TC manufactures that are closing their doors include some of the best and worst. That kind of supports the notion, that we (as a consumer group) do not know what quality is, or refuse to pay for it.
travelnutz wrote:jmtandem,
Very good point about how long the quality built RV's last. They are very expensive RV's and few people will spring for them like you said. We will and basically always have. Pay cheap, get cheap! Then do it all over again...
I was trying to speculate on an average priced RV that would last like the high level ones generally do.
Actually, I wanted to cure the mold, rot, and condensation damage and upgrading the insulation R-factors to acceptable levels at the same time. So much room for desired improvements!
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silversand
Montreal
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Joined: 09/12/2004
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Travelnutz:
Sorry for the long delay in responding! So busy around here lately...
There are already numerous specialty companies that supply composite shell components around the world. The GRP, PU or cored panes are ordered according to the bill of materials/component size output from your flavor of CAD software, along with all appropriately-cut coping, radius and corner connectors, and adhesives, and shipped via container to your plant, FOB destination.
So, for example, if you had a plant set up to "finish" shells for truck campers, expeditions chassis vehicles, Class C, Class A, or towables, you simply order from the component supplier for JIT delivery. The pre-cut shell pieces are delivered to your assembly facility (China, South Africa, Australia, Canada) from say, Europe; the plant assembles the shell, cuts model-specific ports (windows, vents, doors, etc), inserts the components, and either mounts the "box" onto the model chassis, or, in the case of a truck camper, simply ships the units out to dealer/customer.
Here is just one example of a primary component supplier who specialize in truck camper, expedition box, Class C, motorhome bus pre-cut living unit pieces:
Ormocar-->
Cheers,
Silver-
Silver
2004 Chevy Silverado 2500HD 4x4 6.0L Ext/LB Tow Package 4L80E Michelin AT2s| Outfitter Caribou
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travelnutz
West Michigan - On the Lakeshore
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No hurry silversand and thanks for the thoughts/info.
We'll be down to Florida and within a couple miles of Nida-Core in Feb when we go to help my blind brother and his wife, as we do every year, to get their home/yard etc set/maintained for another year. I'll plan on going to Nida-Core's location in St Lucie and talk to them about the posibilities, costs, structural charteristics, true R-factors, and joining/gluing methods required for their product used as structural supporting, etc. I want to see it first hand as brochure's etc usually only depict certain positives. All that glitters is not gold! The transportation uses they speculate/specify have an adequate frame support under the box and the frame carries the unit's weight/cargo. The box is merely the enclosure skin. Truck campers are different as they must carry the weight whether on the truck or not. Campers have very special requirements due to the cantilever design requirement and the lifting of the corner jacks are a normal requirement. Lots to think about as having a 4 corner jacks supporting perhaps 1000 lbs each of loaded camper (11' to 12' camper with appliances etc and interiors etc) while attached/bolted to a foam cored sandwich panel gives me cause to have some reservations. Maybe on a smaller light built European etc sized or type of camper it would make more sense. I've seen and been in the RV's/caravans in Europe and they're a far cry from what's accepted in the USA by the masses of the buying public. Have you actually been in and carefully inspected the particulars of European etc RV's? If so, you know what I am saying. Remember that our Son owned a manufacturing company in England and we got to see a lot up close and personal as to Europe. A very different world!
Backing the sandwich core material still means tightening of the jack bolts would crush the cored panel. Cutting an area out to add a solid boltable material would make it vulnerable to leaks and/or fractures. What about hold down eyes etc? Attach to the foam core panel? Think of the actual load per given corner if all 4 jacks do not lift their equal share as this happens every time you put your camper on or take it off. 2000 lbs? Even "Northern Lites" are not lightweight. Their brochure lists their 10' non-slide camper model at just under 3,000 lbs dry weight without added options. That's it's base weight! About the same as other non-lite stick built non-slide type campers. The "Lite" in their name is very misleading! Hanging weight on the cantilevered walls and bouncing as a road surface creates would really tax this type of sandwich design. Fine for a straight type wall on edge but questionable for a displaced/offset cantilevered wall. One of the reasons I feel an aluminum cage frame may be required and outer panels attached to it or having the framing molded inside the wall itself.
I'm not being negative but rather questioning because something doesn't feel right to me for our type of removable camper requirements. If it's permanently mounted on a vehicle chassis, it would make a lot more sense.
I'm still searching for the best way to construct the perfect camper and/or that's truely cost effective as price more often than not means sales or no sales. Only a fool would market a product that doesn't sell and we've had so many examples of it in history and not merely in the RV industry. Yup, they're out of business so quickly.
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silversand
Montreal
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Travelnutz:
Yes. I've seen the Tischer "trail" model (core-paneled expedition-grade) truck camper, with a rear hydraulic lift mechanism. This is a huge cored shell design not using clam-shell technique, manufactured for 0.75 to 1 ton North American trucks. Interior net height is at 6.6 feet, OD: 89.3 inches (!), well laid-out interior, *at least* as much room inside as Northern-lite's largest camper, but at only *a fraction* of the weight (1767 LBS) with many, many options (like light-weight high-efficiency heater and airconditioner' flexible mylar solar collector glued on roof, etc).
Cored panel attachments reinforcement for through-the-floor-to-frame or via external jack attachment are already well-developed and long-tested in Europe for slide-ins, so the wheel needn't be re-invented at all...
Cheers,
Silver-
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