|
|
| Travel Trailers Related Tips |
|
|
|
JBarca
Dublin, Ohio, USA
Senior Member
Joined: 12/16/2004
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club
 Offline
|
Fisherguy wrote:Ventilation is paramount, okay, so when it's cold outside and the furnace is coming on all the time what we wanna do is open 2 or 3 windows to reduce the condenstation?
I'd like to know what winter campers do, you know the skiers would come in every noght with all their wet gear and turn the heat on, must be drippin then.
Hi Fisherguy
We do winter camp and I "wish" I had double pain windows. I picked up a few tips here on storms and Lexan, h'mm that may be in the future.
I'm using the clear shrink wrap now and it is a 90% improvement over not doing anything. However there is still an issue with the moisture wicking thru the cold alum window frame. But I'm working on that now too. Have an idea on how to isolate the alum from the outside to the inside. Maybe even this weekend.
However, the laws of physics are in full force with winter camping. I have to vent the TT at night or else. I open the roof vent furthest from the bed room a good 1" up on the one end. And I have a 32 foot TT. During the night is the worst for us from the moisture of breathing. During the day, the sun dries some of it out. When we shower, we crack open the roof vent in the bath room so it can go out quick.
The moisture is dying to get out of the TT, so we just open the vent and let a lot of it go out. Yes we do loose some heat too by this, but it is this or doing the dehumidifier thing and that is one thing that sucks way too much power. We use a ceramic heater and an oil filled one and only use the furnace as needed. And even then I have to bring in an extra 20 amp line.
Good luck with your new camper.
John
John & Cindy
2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10
CC, SB, Lariat & FX4 package
21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR
Ford Tow Command
1,700# Reese HP hitch & HP Dual Cam
2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver
2004 Sunline Solaris T310SR
(I wish we where camping!)
|
mynetdude
Grants Pass, OR
Full Member
Joined: 10/04/2009
View Profile
Offline
|
I just recently got an 03 dutchmen TH, I get lots of condensation and will be looking at solutions to solve the problem. I used to have a '93 Terry, didn't have condensation problems at all, I used an oil filled heater 100% of the time as my furnace on that unit didn't work anyway so condensation was not a problem. My '93 terry is aluminum and my 03 dutchmen is fiberglass so I am sure there is a huge difference in breathability as I read in previous post by Wes.
I have been told that a lot of the condensation is from the furnace or any propane fueled heaters and humans too (shower, cooking, hot water, etc). If I could just figure out how to stay comfortably warm even while venting I would be happy.
I'd rather have storm windows specifically made for my unit rather than using plastic sheets or home made but to be able to open a window in case of an issue would also be a consideration as you have to remove the storm window first.
maybe in a few years I will be able to get a TH with double pane windows, but while I am enjoying my TH now I want to take good care of it so need to work on these things.
Good luck to the OP, improving your RV/TT/5ver is always a good investment IMHO. Too bad shady businesses choose not to make good on their customers and take your money.
|
smkettner
Southern California
Senior Member
Joined: 03/21/2005
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club
|
Since you have the emails with the confirmation on the windows I would let him know he has two options; 1) retrofit to your satisfaction and sell at the negotiated price 2) refund the deposit. If refused I would start by contacting his business licensing agency and forwarding the written documents in a complaint.
2001 F150 SuperCrew
2006 Keystone Springdale 249FWBHLS
|
SteveRankin
Sequim, WA
Senior Member
Joined: 05/05/2005
View Profile
Offline
|
Northwood offers both 'storm windows' and 'double pane' windows as options on their coaches.
We live in NW Washington and visited 4 different dealers before ordering our 29V TT. All four dealers + one AF factory rep insisted that storm windows were (a) more popular by far, and (b) made more sense than double pane windows. So, we ordered it with storm windows. The good news is that the storm windows were much less expensive (can be retrofitted easily I believe) and they function extremely well, and they eliminate the condensation around the window frame because that's covered. The bad news is that they prevent you from opening the window(s) unless they are removed. While it's very easy to remove the storm windows, it's not so easy to find a place to store them in the coach, which means they get left home a lot.
Our second Arctic Fox was on a dealer's lot rather than special ordered, and it came with the standard windows. We've ordered replacement windows from Northwood before so our plan is to order replacement double-pane windows for the new 5ver.
Steve & C. J.
"Gracie" the Rough Collie & "Bo'sun" the Bichon Frise
2009 Arctic Fox 24-5N
2005 Chevy 2500HD Duramax 4X4 Crewcab
PullRite 18K SuperGlide
Our Arctic by RV trip
Our Arctic Fox & Chevy web pages
Our Beaver motorhome Technical page
The Arctic Circle
|
Deus Ex Machina
Central New Jersey
Full Member
Joined: 09/25/2009
View Profile
Offline
|
mynetdude wrote:
I have been told that a lot of the condensation is from the furnace or any propane fueled heaters and humans too (shower, cooking, hot water, etc). If I could just figure out how to stay comfortably warm even while venting I would be happy.
Yes, burning propane produces water vapor. Lots of it. Portable, non-vented heaters will cause condensation problems inside the RV. I've spent many a winter weekend inside a drippy, humid camper.
However, the furnace is outside vented. The combustion products and water vapor never enter the RV. So it will not contribute to the condensation problem. Actually, the circulation of the air from the furnace will actually help matters somewhat.
Paul
|
|
|
travelnutz
West Michigan - On the Lakeshore
Senior Member
Joined: 04/09/2006
View Profile
|
We have ThermoPane windows thruout our large home and they used to still sweat/form dripping condensation along the bottom 10% - 20% of the window on cold days below about 20F. You can feel the cold air flowing downward off them by putting your hand below the window on cold below freezing days or nights. You can also can feel the heat radiating from them in the summer and I'm not talking about the suns rays. On the shade side of the house. I have added inside storms which I had made locally to almost all windows and the sweating totally quit and there's no cold coming from them anymore nor heat. There was a very noticable drop in our heat (natural gas) bill also. I'm an engineer and am really fussy about proper insulation and sealing and things being done properly. Those who know me know that I had helped one of the high end RV manufacturers attain better than double the R-factor in their product line without adding hardly any weight and just a small increase in cost to accomplish the feat. They already had adequate spacing designed into their product line. I'm well retired now but still experiment and love to make things!
Bear in mind that a ThermoPane window or a standard dual pane window only has from 3/8" to 3/4" of dead air space between the panes. Not much but so much better than single pane windows. My storms have over 2" of dead air space plus the advantage of triple panes. This holds true for an RV window also only a worse factor enters in as the overall insulation is much less than in a home and the living space is but a fraction of a normal home and still has the same number of humans within. This means a much higher level/concentration of water vapor in the inside air than in a home. I'll take adequately applied storms over single pane windows anytime and also over normal dual pane windows also. Storms offer many options. Some are: You can remove some or all according to the season or need. Can be made to be in halves or hinged lower area so a window can still be opened if desired and simply reclose the storm too. Much less costly to make or purchase and easier to replace if broken. Typical RV cost to add the optional dual pane windows is around $1200+ and most do not open or may only have a few that will. Storm window packages are usually in the $500+ range if they are even offered. Making your own is in the $150-$200 range and easy to do. All 3 ways look about the same when installed properly and will help so much over single pane windows. Plenty of choices and options to consider.
This is the travel trailer section (we've had 5 travel trailers in the past) and unfortunately, travel trailers generally have a much lower R-factors of insulation from the same manufacturers than it's brother, 5th wheels. The brochures tell it well! Personally, I feel travel trailers have gotten the short end of the stick! MH's vary greatly and usually according to the RV's cost. So many travel trailers have R-7 or less in the walls, floor, and even the ceiling and some "lite" models have much less or even none in their floors. The normal heat loss is figured at 25% thru the floor, 25% thru the walls, and 50% thru the ceiling/roof. Remember that heat rises so it's only common sense that most heat loss would be thru the ceiling/roof.
2004 Chev 2500HD D/A crew cab LB 4X4, Air Bags & upgraded to 3500HD
Lance 990 Legend Camper 11' 4" with my 2' X 7' rear porch with box
29 ft Carri-lite 5th wheel - specially built
36 ft Carriage 5'er (took a tree falling)
Lance 915 Camper (just sold)
|
mynetdude
Grants Pass, OR
Full Member
Joined: 10/04/2009
View Profile
Offline
|
Deus Ex Machina wrote:mynetdude wrote:
I have been told that a lot of the condensation is from the furnace or any propane fueled heaters and humans too (shower, cooking, hot water, etc). If I could just figure out how to stay comfortably warm even while venting I would be happy.
Yes, burning propane produces water vapor. Lots of it. Portable, non-vented heaters will cause condensation problems inside the RV. I've spent many a winter weekend inside a drippy, humid camper.
However, the furnace is outside vented. The combustion products and water vapor never enter the RV. So it will not contribute to the condensation problem. Actually, the circulation of the air from the furnace will actually help matters somewhat.
That makes perfect ense, since I am using a wall mounted non vented propane heater, I'm curious though what if I turn on the fan to circulate that propane heated air rather than using the furnace? Would that circulate any outside air as well as inside air and reduce the moisture?
The furnace uses more fuel from what I understand so hence the propane heater that was installed in my 5ver by the last owner. But I'm debating on whether or not I want to put additional propane heaters (because I like their fuel efficiency) or stop using it and start using the furnace which will heat the entire unit except the garage (I have a TH) so I'm not sure why the garage isn't ducted for heat!
|
JBarca
Dublin, Ohio, USA
Senior Member
Joined: 12/16/2004
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club
Offline
|
Fellow storm window campers.
It seems some of you make your own and then AF makes them that if I understand it right go over the metal edge inside the camper and stop the metal sweat issues.
Does anyone have a picture of how they do that or an explaintion?
I have done the shrink wrap method and insulated the air space behind the metal flange, but the metal still conducts the cold and sweats out inside.
See here.
Before I reinvent the wheel to get rid of that one last issue, and before I make my own storms thanks to this post, how do they deal with that metal flange sweat?
Thanks
John
|
terryt120r
Pacific Northwest
New Member
Joined: 03/22/2007
View Profile
Good Sam RV Club
|
We purchased a Keystone Cougar 268RLS from Blue Crick in Spokane 14 months ago. Four months later we discovered that it had double pane windows because we were not having any condensation during our annual migration from the Pacific Northwest to the desert in January. Our previous Jayco and Salem had single pane glass and experienced heavy condensation in the winter. We bought a stock trailer out of the dealer's inventory so were surprised it had double panes.
During a stay at Beaudry RV in Tucson last February I was looking at the new Cougars in their inventory and all had single pane. I asked a salesman and he told me he had never seen a double pane unit on their sales lot. So I guess we just lucked out. That said, i would never have another RV without it. No condensation, quieter and also easier to air condition. I was told that the glass adds quite a bit of weight but the measured weight on the scales is very close to the catalogued weight.
|
Wes Tausend
Bismarck, ND
Full Member
Joined: 12/04/2008
View Profile
Offline
|
JBarca wrote:Fellow storm window campers.
...I have done the shrink wrap method and insulated the air space behind the metal flange, but the metal still conducts the cold and sweats out inside.
See here. (John's picture above)
Before I reinvent the wheel to get rid of that one last issue, and before I make my own storms thanks to this post, how do they deal with that metal flange sweat?
Thanks
John
John,
Moisture always finds a way to get to areas we thought we have covered. The reason is that absolutely nothing is 100% resistant to dry water molecules traveling through them. Not even glass. All we can do, then, is slow the process down. I'm not sure exactly what happened to your metal frame but it looks like since some humidity was able to still get through the shrink wrap, it chose to settle on the aluminum. Or it may be coming round-about from the area around the perimeter of the aluminum after first going through the wall cavity. Humidity does travel as a dry vapor until it reaches a cool enough surface to condense into visible water. The idea is to always slow the molecular migration down on the warm side of the wall and yet make sure the cool outside can breathe any remaining vapor (or condensed water) amount to the outside atmosphere.
The funny thing about glass windows is that they are naturally quite well insulated by the very fact that they are glass. By that I mean that glass does not transfer heat very well, so therefore does not lose much heat (get cold) for it's thickness. This seems counter intuitive when we observe the glass gather condensation, but the reason is that solid glass heroically resists moisture migration through itself so it begins to accumulate on the surface. This is not true of the relatively porous walls which absorb the moisture detrimentally and pass it on to the wall interior, which is the real problem. We don't see it, but it is constantly happening in cool weather.
So glass is really a great insulator for its' thickness. On the other hand, aluminum transfers heat (cold) almost faster than any other substance. So the aluminum around your window has such a great heat loss that it gets and stays very cold, speeding up condensation tremendously, even with restricted vapor amounts. Imagine an equally thick aluminum plate beside a same size of a glass pane. The aluminum plate would sweat (condense water) at a far greater rate than the glass plate.
Another example of differences of heat transfer is that you can hold a glass tube over a laboratory bunsen burner, painlessly with your bare fingers, until it is soft enough to bend an inch away from your fingers. Try holding it that close with any sort of metal tube or rod including aluminum ...ouch.
I can relate an experience I had with a customer in the '70's. The customer called to complain that her walls in the garage were showing all the drywall joints and screws that I had carefully smoothed and painted. Upon inspection, I noted that every outside wall stud showed up as darker than the rest of the wall. I had seen similar before in homes with leaky, smokey fireplaces. The reason was that the wall studs have a greater heat loss than surrounding insulated wall cavities. Moisture was being attracted to these parts of the garage wall at an accelerated rate. The stud lines were dark because these folks had been starting their carburated Lincoln car with the garage door only partially up. The combination of dirty-burning old fashioned chokes and the fact that the main byproduct of gasolene combustion is water vapor, rapidly transfered the soot to the cool stud areas along with the water molecules. For every gallon of fuel burned, more than a gallon of water is produced.
The kicker? All the drywall screw locations were exceptionally visible, being darker than any other part of the wall. Well, of course ...the even greater heat loss (compared to the wood stud) throughout the length of the metal screws caused the fastest water vapor migration of all to the little cool spots that were formed.
So how do you fix the aluminum? You could try to add a vapor barrier around the outer perimeter of the aluminum but be aware that now the water may be still trapped in the wall if that is where it is coming from now. That is why it is so important to control the relative humidity in the TT to start. A 30 to 40% maximum humidity is a recommended goal. I think the structure of most TT's would be enhanced by 20% or less, but it is quite uncomfortably dry with a lot of static electricity. 
Wes
...
* This post was
edited 11/09/09 07:05pm by Wes Tausend *
- 2000 Excursion V-10 - 1995 Coachmen Catalina 280RK, 5091# tare
- Hensley Arrow pending - McKesh mirrors - Champion 4000w/3500w gen
- 1994 Mazda B4000 1/2 ton, 4.0L V6, 3.73, 125"wb
- 1978 Pace Arrow 25' Motorhome, GM 3500 chassis 454cu.in
...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
